Sunday, 05 April 2009
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Fat and Sex - Pleasure, Disgust and Cool
I want to talk about something a little daring.
S-E-X.
Not really about sex, per se, but at least about how being a fat woman and being a sexual being has been navigated in my mind. And, for the most part, it's gone pretty well. But I have a hard time reconciling how well it's gone with how yucky having sex with fat people is supposed to be.
I think that in terms of how comfortable I am with my body, sexually speaking, and how much pleasure I have -- I'm quite grateful. I know plenty of women not as abundantly-sized as me who have a harder time with all of that. I think a combination of how I'm wired, how I was raised, and just pure luck have meant that I don't feel estranged from my body or feel like the lights need to be turned off if I'm going to get naked.
Having had the same partner for 18 years now helps, to some degree, with my comfort. Frankly, being aware of the existence of fat porn has helped. Early on, it was Laurie Toby Edison's book of nudes: Women En Large. Sometimes, it's The Adipositivity Project, in particular, photos showing righteously large bellies in their full glory. But for a very long time I know I've felt that feeling good about my body is something I deserve, have a right to. It's not only me I feel this way about -- really truly I feel that all people have a right to feel good about their bodies and find a sexual expression, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else, and consent is clear. But even when relating to our own bodies, even with no one else in the picture, I do feel we have a right to feel good about our bodies, to like them and derive pleasure from them.
Where this gets complicated for me, well, where to start? Kate Harding's essay in Yes Means Yes! is one place -- the horrible twisted knot that fat women find themselves in between "unfuckable" and "lucky to be raped" -- and yet, we go on every day choosing to have sex with partners who find us sexy and making babies and/or managing to feel sexy on our own. I wish I had my copy of "Shadow on a Tightrope" with me to refer to and quote from -- it's with my other "fat studies" books at my parents' house over a thousand miles away.
I love the things that Shannon at Nudemuse and Marianne at The Rotund have written about sex. A commenter at Shapely Prose (I think it was Richelle) brought up the whole construct of disgust and how it intersects with bigotry. When I think about all of this my mind starts whirling and wishing I were pursuing a PhD rather than simply trying to live a balanced life between working full-time and raising a child and being a partner and sister and daughter and friend and blogger and person in therapy and person with diabetes and, not at all last or least, a fat woman navigating her way through this fat-hating world.
Marianne, writing about "Sex, Presidents, and Art," and in particular, a painter working her way through the presidents painting herself having sex with each of them and the "ick factor" coming into play with the idea of her with President Taft, our fattest president. Here's what she writes:This is where the waters get difficult to navigate sometimes with friends. Because one person’s preference isn’t the issue. No one has to want to have sex with me or think I’m sexually attractive. The problem is that not only is Taft ridiculed as an object of desire (and I will tell you straight up that I think he was a good looking dude) but so is the concept that ANYONE would find him sexually attractive.
It isn’t just that person x is not attracted to me sexually, it’s that the implication is it’s gross for fat people to have sex across the board.
Right, that's the implication that makes me uncomfortable/crazy/sad/angry/frustrated/rebellious. There's also the assumption made about the fat person's partner -- that they must either have some sort of fetish, or really care about "inner beauty," or be so in love they are able to "see past the fat." (Maybe there are other assumptions but those are the ones I could generate in the moment.)
What Shannon has to say about the way that people can say that others' bodies are yucky in her post "Ruminating on the Body:"
If you are really horrified and traumatized by seeing a naked ass that is not the kind of naked ass you like getting naked with, close the fucking window.
Really.
But I guess it's the privilege showing of those feeling "disgusted" to actually state that they are disgusted. There are things in this world that disgust me, but they have not to do with what human bodies look like, they have to do with how human being can treat others, animals and the world. I don't generally get grossed out when I think about people having sex, no matter who those people are, as long as we are talking about consent and freedom from harm. Just because when it comes to looking at bodies, I prefer to look at the type of bodies featured in Women En Large or Adipositivity. But that doesn't mean that men's bodies or thin women's bodies are yucky to me. Even if there was a body that I thought was yucky to look at, I would think that was my problem, not that body's problem.
Even though I understand my values here, it's hard for me to reconcile the pleasure I take in my own body, and the pleasure that I share with my partner of 18 years, with how yucky it is supposed to be in the popular imagination. It seems like the truth that fat bodies are every bit as sexy and sexual as not-as-fat bodies is concealed. And the lie that only trim, toned bodies are sexy and sexual ones rarely gets challenged. There certainly are examples of the challenging of these thoughts in popular forms of media, but it's rare and still on the fringe. And, even though we have a token Beth Ditto here and a Hairspray there, being fat remains, for all it's edginess, uncool.
I'm all about bringing coolness and fatness together. It's probably going to take a less geeky person than me to pull it off (there are all of the bloggers I've cited who can do it). But together, collectively, I believe we can.
One ending note -- it's been 6 days since I last stepped on the scale. It's been hard, I've reached for it a couple of times, but I'm strong.
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Comments (11)
I happened upon your blog. I don't blog much myself, however, this caught my eye.
You have written a well thought out post, and I, for one, appreciate it.
I, too, am large, fat or whatever you want to call it (in my entire life, I've never even been close to being an "acceptable weight to society"). I've been approached by men -- absolute strangers -- who said they "wanted" me.
When I invariably said "no," they'd then invariably sneer, call me crude names and comment that the only reason they'd asked in the first place is because they were wanting to get laid and they knew that "fat women were desperate and would **** anything" and that I "should be grateful" that they wanted to **** me.
Yeah. Right.
Perhaps SOME fat women would fall for that, but NOT this one.
Besides, I'm very ill, physically -- and NO, it has nothing to do with my size. I'm just not into playing games these days. I'm too old to play games, and as a long-time friend of mine told me recently "I'm too old to keep swimming upstream".
My personal time is spent going to doctors, being taken to the ER, admitted to the hospital or recovering from it all at home until the next time. I spend my time simply surviving -- although there are plenty of people who do not even believe I'm ill because my arm isn't in a sling or I'm not on crutches with a cast on my leg.
Regardless, I plan to look into your references and the books you've mentioned here, because I need the obvious self-esteem you've found for yourself.
I plan to show this post to my therapist as well.
Thank you so very much for writing this -- and God bless you.
- Laura
@LauraXF - Kate Harding's essay in "Yes Means Yes!" and the book "Shadow on a Tightrope" are great places to look for confirmation that your experience is unfortunately a common one. The messed-up-ness of some men and society in a more general sense is disturbing and yes, disgusting to me, in terms of the harm it causes.
I hope your illness is one that will improve. I hope you have a whole recovery, whatever that looks like to you.
Regarding self-esteem, Angry Gray Rainbows has a series of good posts about it if you haven't seen them yet. My self-esteem seems to wax and wane but it it's an inspiration to you, I'm glad.
http://angrygrayrainbows.wordpress.com/
@wellroundedtype2 - I think everyone's self-esteem waxes and wanes now and then. Those of us who are "well-rounded" have, I think, more extensive self-esteen problems.
Thanks for responding. I'm amazed at the number of views this post received and yet I was the only one to comment. ??? What's up with that? :::shrug:::
Thank you for the references; I'll be looking into them ... very seriously looking into them.
I neglected to mention that I, too, have Type 2 diabetes. Just occurred in the last three years, and it's under control with diet. Which I find odd since I don't eat that much anyway. (Of course, no one believes me.) I rarely eat anything "bad for you". But, nevertheless, here I am. Thankfully, I'm not insulin dependent.
Regardless, I hope you have a lovely Passover, and that all your observances are peaceful and positive.
God bless.
I love this post. And I think a lot of people, straight men in particular, publicly diss fat bodies because that's practically as de rigeur in our culture as saying the Pledge of Allegiance. (Not to mention, how many "fat"/"before" photos in tabloids and magazines are actually of women who are simply not starvation-thin-- maybe they wear size 12 or 14, which does look "fat" compared to the concave-o-tron models.) The same man who disses the size-14 "before" picture may soon become madly in love and in lust with a woman who wears a size 22, and not think twice about it. The heart knows what it wants, whether or not the personality is secure enough to confess it in public.
I am a woman with a BMI in the "normal" range-- only because I am a genetic freak in my family of large women-- and I am madly in love and in lust with a man who's my height but weighs 100 lbs. more. He's also balding, which I find sexy as hell. I chuckle to myself whenever I see guys worrying about a slight spare tire, or baldness for that matter. Too bad they don't have my husband's secret: self-esteem and a luscious buttery layer of goodness covering those muscles :^)
@xanadu123 - I agree there's this disconnect between "what the heart wants" and what gets dissed. Your guy sounds like he's fortunate to have found someone aware and comfortable with what her heart wants.
My daughter looks like she's got her dad's tendancy to muscular thinness, but I am hoping that she continues to be able to see beauty in people of a variety of sizes, as she does now at age 4.
@xanadu123 -
Your husband could have been my Dad. When they married, my Dad was over 275 and my Mom was exactly 103 -- and she was a knockout!
That's NOT to say my Dad wasn't handsome; he was ... and with this lovely Kirk Douglas dimple in his chin. However, he wasn't your playboy wannabe, either, because of his weight.
He was only 5'7". My Mom was 5'3" and had good looking men falling all over themselves to date her. (I never heard that terminology from her, but from her friends; she still doesn't think she was ever cute, pretty or any other adjective you care to define her by.)
Given the hell I've taken from men, I always wondered WHY she went out with my Dad, especially given how badly HER family treated him because of his size.
Don't get me wrong: I *adored* my Dad and I never cared if he was "fat" or "thin." To me, he was my Dad, and he was handsome as hell, not to mention that he was THE most loving and supportive of fathers on the face of this planet.
When, a few years after my Dad passed away, I finally got the nerve to ask my Mom why she went out with my Dad on a *second* date (they'd been set up on their first as a BLIND DATE), she looked me straight in the eye and said, "He was the *only* man to ask me out who didn't paw me to death or didn't try to unzip my dress or put his hands in inappropriate places." (Mind you, this was just post-World War II, so values were different then.)
After a little more prodding, I found out that she had appreciated his sense of humor, his gorgeous hazel eyes, his brown hair (though not balding), his amazing intelligence, his disarming sense of humor -- and also the fact that it wasn't until they'd been dating for three months that he finally asked if he could kiss her goodnight. It had taken him a month to ask if he could hold her hand.
And, yes, she *did* consider him extremely handsome, too, from the very beginning. His weight was something that didn't matter to her ... probably because her own family called *her* "fatso" and other lovely terms -- at a whopping 103 pounds!
His goal in life was to see the year 2000 and have a 50th wedding anniversary party. He missed the first by three years and the second by two, unfortunately. I miss him every day ... as does my Mom.
By the way, Xanadu123 ... I'm quite sure having grown up with a pair of loving parents, one being "normal" BMI and the other being "obese" BMI has something to do with my own attitude, but I don't look at men the way they look at me. All they have to be is kind and considerate -- and sincere.
And if they're bald or slightly balding, that's even better! I discovered some years ago, I have a "thing" for bald/balding men! (Examples: Patrick Stewart, Phil Collins, among others.) Too bad they don't have a "thing" for me. :::shrug:::
I think you have fabulous taste!
Thanks for your props, LauraXF! It's always so helpful to have different body sizes "modeled" in your family of origin as being OK. My grandmother did NOT provide this to my mom and her sisters-- she was a tiny little chain-smoker who birthed three rounded daughters and she blamed their body shapes on "not dieting enough."
But luckily my mom decided on her own she would never diet again. We get a laugh out of the fact that I eat more than she does, and we both have the bodies nature intended for us. And marrying a guy who is comfortable in his skin has helped me be more comfortable in mine!
I just came upon thig blog and being a plus-sized single woman (I am very tall too) I deal with other peoples assumptions about my sexuality all of the time. Right now I am in a long distance relationship. I have found that my co-workers (one in particular) have two assumptions:
#1 We must have met on the internet because I am not good enough to meet a man anywhere else. Not True, we didn't meet on the internet.
#2 They think they are very subtle when they ask, "So, are we ever going to be able to meet him?" What they really are thinking is, "I can't wait to see this guy- he must be ugly if he going out with her or he must be heavy like her." No true, he is not slim, but he is not as heavy as I am.
Actually, I really don't like the people I work, that is why they have not met him. When he is in town, I am not wasting time with them. I just love talking about my relationship and just crumbling all of their stereotypes about fat women. I think it is hilarious.
@xanadu123 - You're VERY welcome!
I will tell you that Karma can be a total b*tch. It's real and I believe in it.
My two aunts (Mother's sisters) and their husbands did their very best to drive my Dad out of the family with their consistent taunts, calling him "FatBoy", making fun of the fact that he lost an eye (due to someone's incompetence not long after being honorably discharged from the Army Air Corps, duty in WWII), etc.
With TWO exceptions (two first cousins), ALL of them are now larger than I am, larger than was my late sister and, of course, my Dad. I'm not laughing at them, by any stretch, because, naturally, they don't recognize that THEY are larger and simply keep up with all the fat jokes.
Since I blatantly refused to go to family get-togethers once I was old enough to stay by myself, I chose not to associate with them any longer. It was probably one of the best things I've ever done.
I'll admit it's kind of lonely, though, with my sister and Dad gone and only one of those two first cousins left and NO ONE alive on my Dad's side ... however, I'd rather be lonely by choice than tortured by default.
Besides, I have a few friends of many, many decades who are closer to me than I ever was to most of my maternal side of the family.
Aside from the regret of losing both my sister and my Dad -- and I am NOT asking for sympathy here -- my biggest regret was in NOT realizing that the man I was in love with was *truly* in love with me ... until it was too late. Why? Because he was a body-builder. Not the Schwarzenegger variety, but in GREAT shape and, after a lifetime of being told by "friends," society and "family" that I was worthless, I couldn't bring myself to believe he could love me unconditionally.
I realized it and found out FAR too late he was serious. By then, he'd found someone else.
I *am* glad to say he is happily married now, and with kids. Although his sweet wife evidently put her foot down on his dream of having a DOZEN children. :) They have two, and they're very happy. Believe it or not, I'm happy for them. They're a cute couple with even cuter kids.
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